Random FMIC information with a little turbo info mixed in.....

[David Buschur]

Air tempurature at start of test, 64.40 degrees
Air tempurature at end of test 82.40 degrees.

Peak boost pressure was 41.58 psi.

**IMPORTANT NOTE!!!! Test ended at ONLY 6200 rpm as the pipe blew off 2 times, when I tested this POS no matter how tight I put the couplings on (using T BOLT clamps) the coupling would blow off the intercooler around 6200 rpm. Had the test been able to run to 7,000 rpm+ like all the other tests listed here the AIT's would have continued to climb even higher.

[David Buschur]

Alright. Big blow up on EVOm last week, which is what got this thread started in the first place. Seems as though ETS is rubbing AMS and us the wrong way.

Just so happens today we are putting together a customers car that has a lot of misc. parts in the build. One of which is the turbo kit which was supplied by ETS. Stuff was nicely boxed and all new. I have dyno'd two of the kits in the past (one T3 and one T4 35r kit) but never looked too hard at them, as in the past I didn't care. Now I do.

So below are some pictures and comments that will shock you.

Rusted mild steel flange, not even on the car yet....sad. The head flange, turbine housing flange and both wastegate flanges are all mild steel. (mild steel flanges cost a 1/5 of SS) You can also see where there was too much heat applied and the weld started to blow through the tubing. This is troubling as you can only imagine what is in the rest of the runners.



Another picture just noting the rust and that there is no internal welding done at all on any of the runners. The flange is ground out substantially leaving a large under cut area on the tops and bottoms of each flange to runner area.



More external weld melted through, no internal welding, more miserable rust.



More of the same but a full shot to show the entire rusted flange.

[David Buschur]

This kit also uses the cheaper standard compressor cover. We do NOT use this cover on any of our turbo kits. This compressor cover will absolutely cause compressor surge problems and make the car un-enjoyable to drive.



I do not believe in recirculating the wastegate back into the exhaust. I know some people want to have it done, I do not do it. There are performance gains to not recirculating the pipe. IF YOU DO recirculate the wastegate it is of the utmost importance that it is done properly. This picture is not proper, it is a horrible mess. The exhaust is attempting to come out of the turbine wheel and flow out of the exhaust. In this picture you can see that the wastegate is dumping high pressure exhaust directly into the flow path of the exhaust before it can even make it's turn into the 02 housing. Poor, very poor design here.



Here is a picture of our Buschur Racing header. You can see that the runners are shaped exactly like the port, the flanges are all 304 grade SS, the runners are welded internally at the head flange and the collector for smoother transitions and better durability.



Same thing as above but shows all 4 runners being welded and transitioned the same.

[David Buschur]

It's very easy to sell parts cheaper than your competitors when you are using parts to build your products that are MUCH MUCH MUCH cheaper to buy. In this case this same car has a complete upper and lower i/c pipe kit from ETS. To my surprise the entire upper and lower kit is made of mild steel tubing. Mild steel tubing is also about 1/5 the cost of SS right now. Not to mention the expense of polishing our stainless compared to coating mild steel.

Here is a picture of one of the pipes from the kit with the magnet on it to verify it's mild steel composure.

[David Buschur]

Starting AIT, 93.20
Ending AIT, 96.80
20 psi at 3641 rpm
Peak boost 31.57 psi

[Danimal]

Is that really what those guys are selling? Thats pitiful.

[vwjeff]

OMG that is amazing. When I seen that wastegate and how it went into the o2 housing I though to myself WTF, before I read what you said... knowing that was a bad idea in the design

ETS FTL... no?

[David Buschur]

Yes, that is what they are selling and up until EVOm turned into a huge crap fest again I didn't much care. You guys know how I am once I get it in for someone. It just so happened this car we had here had two huge boxes from them and I noticed it today. I am pretty disapointed in it, if only their fan boys would see this and realize it's not the greatest stuff and there is a reason some parts are cheaper than others..............

[David Buschur]

AIT at start, 91.40 degrees
AIT at end, 127.4
Peak boost, 30.86
20 psi at 4211 rpm (very nice spool up on this combo)

[blackout]

Stupid thing is those people on evom would still defend them and come up with some excuse. Probably say it was one of there first kits or something lame and you'll be a bad guy for pointing it out.

[ifarted2]

** This is ETS posting under Paul's username, we tried to create a username, but the security picture wouldn't allow it, so please disregard the username**

Again we regret being put in this position, but do feel that this situation requires a response. We never state that our manifolds use SS flanges. In fact, a while back when asked about mild steel flanges, you posted up a pic. of your SS flange. This is common knowledge that we use the mild steel flanges, our kits are manufactured to save the customers money, and the mild flanges allow us to do this. SS is always an option.

As for the IC piping, the steel piping is common knowledge on our products. We use the steel piping because it doesn’t distort under the T-Bolt clamp loads, and it is cheaper than SS. We offer SS for those who want it, but most enthusiasts are working with a budget, so the mild helps satisfy their needs, without compromising performance. We do not offer aluminum piping, as we feel it crushes too easily. The customers who want SS piping do buy it, however most of our sales are mild steel piping, again due to price.

As for the WG recirculation, we feel that there is nothing wrong with that configuration. The Exhaust gasses are making a turn as they come out of the turbine, and the recirculation gasses flow in the direction of gas flow. We positioned our WG there for the same reasons as we mentioned in the AMS thread.

This thread is disturbing to us, We have never said a bad thing about buschur products, and before last week you never have really said anything bad about us. You state that is because of the AMS situation. In that scenario, a customer was asking which kit to get out of the BR, ETS, AMS . Neither you, nor we got involved in that thread until AMS bashed our turbo kit. We had done nothing to AMS up until that point, and they were the aggressors.

Now BR has decided to become our biggest critic, we really wish you would let the customers make their own minds up, but if you can’t let it go, we understand that, as we know we have made some sales that may have otherwise gone to BR. We make our sales on quality, value, products, with great customer service. We have not deceived anyone, and all of the customers that we know of have been happy with their experience with us.

We want to cooperate with you, AMS, and all of the other vendors in this market, there is plenty to go around, and none of this helps anybody.




PS- The kit pictured shows very excessive rusting, much much more than the kits that have been on our shelves here for some time........

[Danimal]

ETS- I respect you for dropping in to speak your mind. I don't know you and have nothing against you and would like to think that I keep an open mind.

One thing I should tell you that I found most disturbing about the pics posted are the things that you don't address. The general quality of fabrication is maybe a bit substandard. Folks can make a choice about what material they wish to go with and thats fine but you have a choice about how well fitted and finished the parts are that leave your shop.

I'm not sure how this all got started and I really don't care. In the end the company I pull hardest for is Me Incorporated but for that reason I care about things like fit, finish and longevity. I question how well your product performs because if your willing to let that sort of stuff leave your shop how well sorted is its design in the first place?

[David Buschur]

You are welcome here, no problem. Sorry you could not get signed on under your own name. We are having some odd problem with the forums and have the problem being worked on. We were contacted by quite a few guys today who had the same trouble.

If it wasn't for the douche bags over on EVOm with ETS in their signature and constantly being on my ass I still would not be paying any attention to your to be honest. I am constantly being attacked by a couple of fools over their with nothing but ignorance coming from them. Accusing me of nitrous, accusing me of gutted cars, not running a HTA35r, etc.

I was not aware that you used mild steel flanges or mild steel tubing. I am pointing it out as I am quite sure there are 1,000's of potential customers who also don't know about that. As you know the cost of SS is absolutely rediculous and adds considerable cost to any product/kit.

The cost of polishing SS is also extremely high, compared to powder coating or ceramic coating it is MUCH more expensive to have done.

There were a few things with the kits that I simply did not like the transition at the head is not what I like to see. The dump tube from the wastegate is quite honestly horrible.

AMS and I are fairly close, as close as any two highly competitive shops can get I guess. I don't feel AMS's post over on EVOm was out of line and I thought it was quite politically correct as to the manner it was posted in. Your counter attack though I felt was out of line.

I've had very little experience with the ETS kits, this will be the 3rd turbo kit I have tuned and I have only dyno'd one FMIC.

You will find that while I can be an asshole, I am an honest asshole and what I do post is factual. I guess that's fairly obvious as you didn't come here and call me a liar

I don't know what to say about the amount of rust. The kit is how we removed it from the box.

[ifarted2]

David
I wanted to come here and apologize for my actions and disrespect toward you. This has been on my mind all weekend. Ive been under allot of stress with work and behind on some big projects and i feel that ive been using the forums to vent
But you have been one of the pioneers in the industry and have worked hard on all your accomplishments and my hats off to you for that.

The other guys that have been on you im going to talk to and take care of that. I know Lucas has already talk to them so it should come to a end.


As for the ETS stuff up here JR the owner can speak for himself
Sincerely

Paul Nelson

[ifarted2]

** This is ETS posting with Pauls username until we get our login **

Wow, we are impressed with your responses. We felt that posting in here was a gamble, but we are delighted to see a warm repsonse. Even though your responses come with criticism, so far everything seems to be factual or pluasible. The only difference in opinion we have seems to be the WG re-route and the compressor cover.

You state that our recirc is horrible, and we respect that. We feel it is fine, we just will need to test it and see.

Fot the compressor cover, that is the best t04e cover we know of. We don't use the S cover in this kit due to motor mount clearance. We have a different kit designed for the larger turbos, and in those kits we offer the anti-surge covers.

For the drop through weld, we weld the transition of the head flange to the runner with as much heat as possible. In the case of drop through in that area, we port it. Typically it is most present onthe sides of the port. That weld should not have the drop through in it, we should have ported it, and it was not ported. This is probably becuase the deburring job is done by the entry level positions in the shop, but that is no excuse for not catching it. For this, to the customer, we are sorry.

As for your frustration on evoM with our supporters, I do have to sigh, and somewhat laugh, as I can just imagine your thoughts with some of the replys you get. We are not involved with any of those posts, but we are guilty by association, we will try to calm it down, but you can only lead a horse to water........

Anyways, I feel we are the same page, stick to the facts, state our opinions, and move on. We will stand up for what we believe in, as do you, but you will not hear many arguments that we cannot back up with fact, or at least a plausible hypothesis.....

ETS

[David Buschur]

I am a complete idiot for posting this but I will anyway.

When you start doing your testing on the wastegate being dumped back into the exhaust you are going to find that at low power levels nothing makes much difference. (OT here for a second, shitty exhausts, shitty i/c's, shitty cams, shitty tunes all work at low HP levels.) The higher the HP levels go the more the shitty parts show up and kill the combination.

With that said IF you do actually take the time to push the car and experiment with the dump tube going back into the exhaust path you are going to find that you will need to dumb it back into the exhaust so the dump flows directly into the path of the exhaust coming from the turbine wheel and you will find that dump needs to be between 12" and 18" AFTER the turbine wheel.

I've done a little testing in the 19 years I've been doing this. This is one reason we don't recirculate the dump tube, there is no good clean way to do it and it robs power.

Putting it back in where yours is is probably the worste place I can imagine and the angle it is at makes it worse. This particular housing has it pointed slightly into the exhaust flow coming out of the turbo, it has to back up the exhaust flow.

[Nuked]

** This is ETS posting with Pauls username until we get our login **

Wow, we are impressed with your responses. We felt that posting in here was a gamble, but we are delighted to see a warm repsonse. Even though your responses come with criticism, so far everything seems to be factual or pluasible. The only difference in opinion we have seems to be the WG re-route and the compressor cover.

You state that our recirc is horrible, and we respect that. We feel it is fine, we just will need to test it and see.
Fot the compressor cover, that is the best t04e cover we know of. We don't use the S cover in this kit due to motor mount clearance. We have a different kit designed for the larger turbos, and in those kits we offer the anti-surge covers.

For the drop through weld, we weld the transition of the head flange to the runner with as much heat as possible. In the case of drop through in that area, we port it. Typically it is most present onthe sides of the port. That weld should not have the drop through in it, we should have ported it, and it was not ported. This is probably becuase the deburring job is done by the entry level positions in the shop, but that is no excuse for not catching it. For this, to the customer, we are sorry.

As for your frustration on evoM with our supporters, I do have to sigh, and somewhat laugh, as I can just imagine your thoughts with some of the replys you get. We are not involved with any of those posts, but we are guilty by association, we will try to calm it down, but you can only lead a horse to water........

Anyways, I feel we are the same page, stick to the facts, state our opinions, and move on. We will stand up for what we believe in, as do you, but you will not hear many arguments that we cannot back up with fact, or at least a plausible hypothesis.....

ETS

This comment (in red) is where I as a consumer become concerned. If I am going to spend 3k on a turbo kit, I expect it to be fully tested in real world conditions to work. Maybe I just misunderstand the comment, but I would feel very uneasy forking out that kind of money for a part this is thought to work?

Not trying to be an ass, just confused by that comment.

SQ

[Spoolin0nYou]

This comment (in red) is where I as a consumer become concerned. If I am going to spend 3k on a turbo kit, I expect it to be fully tested in real world conditions to work. Maybe I just misunderstand the comment, but I would feel very uneasy forking out that kind of money for a part this is thought to work?

Not trying to be an ass, just confused by that comment.

SQ

Ya know, I thought the same thing when I read their post as well. Why would you not test a product before selling it? That makes no sense at all.

[vwjeff]

^^^ DAMN you 2 beat me to it

Everyone has beat me to the punch today

[ifarted2]

** ETS Posting again, until we get a login **

That statement means that we have not scientifically tested that aspect of the kit. For a test like that we will measure HP with and without a recirc, and then we will re-route it farther downstream. We do have experience with this and it we did not put the recirc there blindly.
In a bottom mount KA24de 240sx kit, we had a recirc in the same place, the vehicle made 480 some hp. The customer wanted to hear the WG when it opened, so we built a DP without the recirc, but with a dump tube. It went back to the dyno, and only made 3whp more. For this reason, we are confident with our recirc placement.
Also before we released these kits to the public, we tested them on 2 vehicle which we felt accurately represented our potential customerbase. The first car was a 50trim making right at 400whp, and the other was a 57trim making 468 whp. We felt these were good results for the turbos in these kits, and we had no reason to do a specific WG recirc test.

The test that we speak of in the post on here, is a specific WG recirc test, to see just how much difference there is between recirc, no recirc, and a downstream recirc. There are many products for the EVO that we have in the works, but the testing isn’t done, so we don’t even talk about them.