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Thread: Definitions of different HP and Torque measurements.

  1. #1
    Join Date
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    Default Definitions of different HP and Torque measurements.

    I am asked these questions quite often and thought it would be a good idea to list the answers here. Easiest definitions I found were on Wikipedia so I am just cutting and pasting. I get a few UK magazines and they are always speaking of HP in BHP and Torque in NM. So for guys who are as dumb as me this will be good stuff, for you smart ones............

    Brake horsepower (bhp)
    Brake horsepower (bhp) is the measure of an engine's horsepower without the loss in power caused by the gearbox, generator, differential, water pump, and other auxiliary components such as alternator, power steering, and AC compressor. Thus the prefix "brake" refers to where the power is measured: at the engine's output shaft, as on an engine dynamometer. The actual horsepower delivered to the driving wheels is less. An engine would have to be retested to obtain a rating in another system. The term "brake" refers to the original use of a band brake to measure torque during the test (which is multiplied by the engine RPM and a scaling constant to give horsepower).

    (SAE)
    In the United States the term "bhp" fell into disuse after the American Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) recommended manufacturers use hp (SAE) to indicate the net power of the engine, given that particular car's complete engine installation. It measures engine power at the flywheel, not counting drivetrain losses.

    SAE-certified horsepower
    In 2005, the Society of Automotive Engineers introduced a new test procedure for engine horsepower and torque.[5] The procedure eliminates some of the areas of flexibility in power measurement, and requires an independent observer present when engines are measured. The test is voluntary, but engines completing it can be advertised as "SAE-certified".

    hp (DIN)
    DIN horsepower is the power measured according to the German standard DIN 70020 and like the SAE net figure is measured at the flywheel. However, DIN "horsepower" is often expressed in metric (Pferdestärke) rather than mechanical horsepower.

    [edit] Effective horsepower (ehp) / True horsepower (thp) / Wheel Horsepower (whp)
    Effective horsepower, True hp or wheel horsepower is the power converted to useful work. In the case of a road vehicle this is the power actually turned into forward motion as measured on a chassis dynamometer.

    "True hp" is generally 10% to 20% less than the engine's "bhp" ratings due to drivetrain losses.

    Wheel Horsepower (whp) is the more widely used term for Effective horsepower.

    Some people (e.g. American automotive engineers) use horsepower (imperial mechanical) for power, foot-pounds (lbf·ft) for torque and rpm (revolutions per minute) for angular speed. This results in the formula changing to:

    HORSEPOWER=Torque in ft lbs X RPM/5252

    TORQUE

    The SI unit for torque is newton•meters (N•m). In U.S. customary units, it is measured in foot pounds (ft·lbf) (also known as 'pounds feet').

    The conversion for NM to FT LBS is:

    1 newton meter = 0.737 ft. lbs.

    So there's some good common numbers that get thrown around. So now if you're like me when you read anything from the UK you know the HP and torque numbers are much higher than here.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
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    Wiesbaden, Germany
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    Default

    So, to feed a few Numbers to the thread:

    I am running an 2.0l Buschur Shortblock, VSR Intake, 75mm TB, 1200ccm Inj.,
    AEM EMS speed density, Buschur Racing Fmic, BR GT35 R cast manifold and HTA Cover, recirculated dump tube, FP272 Cams, 200 Cpi Metall Cat, 3 inch Exhaust Invidia G200

    Dynoed on an Load Holding Dyno here in Germany ( Mustang style like David dyno, double rollers per wheel )
    Maximum Brake Force from Dyno: 600 HP / Axle
    The operator is not involved in Tuning in any Way, so he only measure Cars on the rollers ( you will get what you have )

    Run Time : 5 minutes ( 1minute each RPM range ) warmup for engine and tyres ( @ steady 3K, 3.5 K, 4 K, 4.5 K, 5K with max brake force from Dyno @ full throttle )
    Then the Power run:
    Time from 3000 RPM to 9000 RPM : 30 seconds ( 200 RPM / second ) linear raise
    4th Gear

    PURE 94 ( European 100 Okt ) Pump Gas ( no meth / no Water )

    Flywheel DIN ( SAE) HP: 514 hp @ 7500 RPM
    Engine Power ( BHP ) : 541 hp @ 7500 RPM ( losses from Alternator, Belts, Pumps, AC estimated by 5% percent )
    Drivetrain loss ( measured during roll out ) 100 hp (FULL AYC ACD Evo 7 Snow setting) @ Max Power RPM

    Power to the wheels : 414 HP
    Torque: 656 NM ( 483 ft·lbf ) @ 5500 RPM

    Boost :
    Torque Maximum: 2.2 Bar = 32 Psi
    Power Maximum : 2.0 Bar = 30 Psi


    Steffen
    Evolution VII EU spec
    BR GT35R @35Psi on Pump 94, AEM EMS w WB O2, AEM Short ram, Invidia G200 Turboback,
    Buschur Race FMIC, 3" Piping, AMS VSR w.75mm TB, Race Cat 100cpi, Bilstein B16PSS9 Suspension w H&R Stabilizer-Bars, Team Dynamics 8x18 Prorace 1.2

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2005
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    hell, michigan
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    Default

    thats great info guys i always wondered where the terms actually ment when i didnt know. good thread
    92 talon tsi awd the project that will never run again

    05' EVO RS: stock motor, Map rev3 & ported exhaust mani, Map ef4 turbo, Milspec 65 mm tb, Ams fmic, Buschur stages 1-5, GSC S2 cams with GSC springs and retainers, Zeitronics wb, Exedy hd twin, Sparktech non cdi, Koni coil overs, Enkie nto3's, fic 1450's, Grimmspeed 3 port, tephra v7 SD



    TSCOMPTUNED

    544/443



    Any questions about my setup feel free to ask me.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    PL
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    Here's my dyno chart made on German Maha dyno - 2 roller set with 1 Eddy Current Brake each it's called LPS 3000

    In Poland Maha is the most trusted dyno to show accurate measurements, cause the wheel power can be changed by the force the car is strapped to the rollers.
    The car was dynoed on EU 100okt pump gas ~94 us okt
    it has:
    - 65mm TB
    - ported intake mani
    - M2 cams
    - walbro
    - BR Deluxe with LICP
    - Helix o2
    - HKS Hi-Power catback
    - custom 2,75" dp
    - and other not making power mods
    Last edited by Asgaard; 12-04-2009 at 05:58 PM.

  5. #5
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    MI
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    Is it just me or does it seem like the rest of the world doesn't have any dynos that make sense? Why even bother making a BHP or SAE HP readout on a chassis dyno when you are measuring HP to the WHEELS? It would be like taking results from an engine dyno and converting them to some fictitious WHP number. It has absoluely no meaning or reason. . .

    "Flywheel DIN ( SAE) HP: 514 hp @ 7500 RPM
    Engine Power ( BHP ) : 541 hp @ 7500 RPM ( losses from Alternator, Belts, Pumps, AC estimated by 5% percent )
    Drivetrain loss ( measured during roll out ) 100 hp (FULL AYC ACD Evo 7 Snow setting) @ Max Power RPM

    Power to the wheels : 414 HP
    Torque: 656 NM ( 483 ft·lbf ) @ 5500 RPM"

    On a 2.0L these "wheel" HP and TQ numbers seem pretty impossible. . . according to the formula definition of HP - Torque (483) x RPM (5500) / 5252 would equal 506 WHP. . .
    Last edited by EVOlutionary; 05-17-2010 at 01:53 AM.

  6. #6
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    Nov 2009
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    Warwick, Rhode Island
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    I never understood why the heck people oversea's are so hung up on BHP dyno results when its the most "guess-timated" figure you can throw out.

    1. They have to know what the power absorption of the pulley driven components are and some cars have removed such things as power steering and A/C and some upgrade to a higher current alternator which may absorb even more ponies.

    2. They have no clue what the drivetrain losses truly are.

    With WHP, you are testing the END RESULT where it makes a lick of a difference in the real-world.....the pavement.
    -Jamie @Dynotech Tuning
    '03 BBY Evo 8 (sold )
    '90 Mirage Hatch with 4g63 swap and Evo 8 ECU

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