A day on the flow bench

[boost3dxevo]

It sounds like you are onto something David! Good work thus far, patiently waiting for the results!!

[wicked E]

What about runner #2 that still showed 308? Any attempts to mimic runner #1's port work?

-E

[boost3dxevo]

What about runner #2 that still showed 308? Any attempts to mimic runner #1's port work?

-E

I have a feeling that runner #2 being a lower number might yield a better low end power curve and not give up as much down low.. but I'm not sure.

[blackout]

Wow alot to take in. Thanks for all the testing Dave.

[David Buschur]

The #2 we may work over a little more. I think I am going to try one more thing on this intake before we call it a day. IF I make another change I'll flow it one more time and then run it on the car.

[David Buschur]

You guys might find some of this interesting so I am putting a few links up I am coming across.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question517.htm

[vwjeff]

Great post Dave to the link you provided. I think almost all car manufactures are going to this style manifold... all VW's have it and some have a 3 stage manifold... LONG runners up to 3500, a bit shorter up to 4800 and shortest at 4800 and up.

Its to bad something like this cant be made for Evo's... I guess it could its just who is willing to pay
http://www.autotech.com/catalog/vr6int.htm

[johnboy1065]

david,
do you think the driven innovations intake manifold would've outflowed the V2 if it had a 75 or 77mm throttle body on it?

[Dyno Flash]

Great stuff for the mind.

I think we need a dyno test to compare the power variation between the $150 Buschur unit and the $1600 Wilson unit

Only then can informed consumers make a comparison

On my dyno there was hardly any difference what so ever

Al

[boost3dxevo]

Great stuff for the mind.

I think we need a dyno test to compare the power variation between the $150 Buschur unit and the $1600 Wilson unit

Only then can informed consumers make a comparison

On my dyno there was hardly any difference what so ever

Al

From what I remember ... Watching your Video.. Didn't you have the custom v3 intake (3" TB one) on Suman's car and lost power or something? And you switched out to a BR basic ported and gained power back? Do you think that had anything to do with being matched up with the 3" TB?

[David Buschur]

The DI had a 65mm throttle body flange on it. It may have flowed more with a 3" throttle body, I may have tried it if the intake had been flanged for a 3" throttle body.

Jeff, the link I posted I found interesting because they said the intake runner would need to be 10 feet long. I found it interesting because I've read some many people talking about tuned runner length. It appears to me that it would only be possible at a very low engine speed. I don't see it being anything useful for what we are doing with the EVO's.

Yes, the V2 on Suman's car was a custom deal with a 3" TB on it. Personally, I didn't like the look of it and if what we saw on the flow bench is any indication to what may happen with a 3" TB on the stock plenum it makes sense that that particular intake sucked.

Dyno testing will be coming soon. Maybe tomorrow if I can fit it in.

[boost3dxevo]

I agree about the 3" TB idea on the Stock Intake Manifold. Thanks Dave.

[David Buschur]

Interesting. I figured out the cubic inches of the plenum on the stock intake today. Measuring the plenum and stopping at where the runners form the plenum is only 52.32 cu. in. Very small considering the power the car makes on it.

I keep reading these theories on the plenum needing to be atleast 150% larger than the engine displament. That would mean the plenum would need to be at least 183 cubic inches.

I personally don't buy it from what I have seen. I think it adds lag and don't think it needs to be nearly that big. I guess looking at the stock plenum being 52 cu. in. kind of verifies that thought, to a point.

Of all the intakes I tested the Hypertune had the least low/mid range loss and best over all power gains. (also had a 3" throttle body and was tested in February, but I am going off of notes and dyno sheets only) That plenum from memory was the smallest of all.... I will have to verify that.

[SloRice]

Does that include the runners too?

[David Buschur]

No, not the runners, just the plenum volume. The plenum is 2.55" ID and about 10.5 inches long.

[vwjeff]

I was driving home today and thinking about how the runners dont match in CFM. Inside the plenum is there anyway to reshape the tops of the runners inside the plenum to "grab" the air to even things out but only the 1's where its needed

[David Buschur]

This has been a hell of a day.

The day started off with putting my car on the dyno. For the comparison testing I was not going to run the car on kill so I just flipped the dual stage boost switch to low, which is 30 psi.

The car is set up exactly like it was a few weeks ago when it made 705 whp on the Wilson V2. I was running about 42 psi of boost then.

I put the car on the dyno and ran it to get all the fluids up to tempurature.

The first pull showed 607 whp/460 ft lbs of torque. I thought that was pretty strong. I did two back to back pulls, power on both were identical.

I then pulled the V2 off and put the BR ported stock intake on, this is the one we have been working on all week on the flow bench. I did two pulls again and the car made 610 whp and 468 ft lbs. To say I was completely unglued with happiness would be an understatement.

The base pull and all pulls were run to 8,000 rpm. IF I had thought I'd have seen what I ended up seeing on the graphs I have run the car further in the RPM. On the comparison you can see the Wilson V2 is still climbing at 8,000 rpm while the other runs are tapering off. This is important to note because for a really high rpm application the V2 looks like it will make more power over about 8300 rpm than what else I tested today.

OK, so now I wanted to test our standard ported intake manifold, which through all of this crap I have never tested on the dyno against other intake manifolds. There wasn't one here ready to put on so while Ted was working on porting one for me I took the V2 that was on MY car and the new port design we did back to the flow bench. The V2 on my car is different than any other V2 I have seen. It has much more welding on it than I have seen on any others and the runners appear to be cut down lower.

Speaking of runner, the stock runners in #4 measure close to 10", the V2 on my car measured 6.25" on runner #4, the DI measures 6.5" and the one we ported on measured 8.5".

Now back to the flow bench because I wanted to see what the changes we made again to our ported one and this other style V2 were going to flow.

Wilson V2 off my car:
#1, 340cfm
#2, 322cfm (-5%)
#3, 330cfm (-3%)
#4, 325cfm (-4%)
Total CFM, 1317

The BR extra ported intake we have been working on:
#1, 317cfm (-3%)
#2, 313cfm (-4%)
#3, 313cfm (-4%)
#4, 327cfm
Total CFM, 1279

OK, I was happy to see we were able to get ours that balanced with a reasonable amount of work. At this point in the day I was trying to figure out how much more we'd charge for such a great piece of work.

Also note that the Wilson V2 that was on my car had the highest total CFM of any intake I have flow tested. I think this directly cooresponds to the intake still flowing well in the 8,000 rpm+ range. This seems to be the only thing I have really been able to pin directly to the flow bench.

By the time I get the flow testing done the standard ported intake is done and I put it on the car.

The results of the stock ported intake were, 613 whp and 472 ft lbs of torque.

Now to be absolutely honest I expected the stock ported intake to gain in the low and mid ranges since we know we lost 50+ whp on average with the aftermarket intake at 4500. What I didn't expect was for it to be better all the way to 8,000 rpm.

Here is a picture of the three dyno pulls for comparison:



So, a few hundred dollars in flow benching fees, my entire week and most of my sleepless nights this week consumed with flow bench testing, Ted's week spent porting and running around after me, a day on the dyno and what have I learned beyond a doubt? Mitsubishi engineers are NOT stupid.

What else do I THINK I have gathered? Flow balance from runner to runner on the flow bench doesn't seem to effect crap. Shorter runners seem to move the power up OR the difference in the plenum size does it. Kind of knew that already though.

What is the flow bench testing worth? I'd say very little. It does seem that the higher the total CFM is the more likely the engine is going to make power in the high rpm. Is that what it is though? Maybe it's the difference in the runner length doing it and the size of the plenum only.

Wow. I feel like I wasted a week.

[2highpsi]

Am I reading correctly that the regular old $140 standard ported stocker out performed both the V2 and the "extra ported" runner matched manifold?

If so that makes me feel warm and fuzzy on the inside knowing I didn't drop the cash for another intake.

[blackout]

Wow I didn't expect that result..... I thought the stock ported had already lost in manifold comparisons?

[SloRice]

haha game, set, match. Proved my point from the other thread!!

One thought I want to make public is a real comparison of the BR ported manifold vs. the V2.

vwjeff, SPIN2GST, Celica2Evo, Daniel Buschur and I all have VERY similar setups. Most of the mods are the same, but I will note the differences next to each name below along with the best run.

Daniel B. - BR ported mani, Tilton C/C, GT37R - 9.67@149.64 mph.
SPIN2GST - BR ported mani, Exedy triple, HTA35R - 9.84@149.46
vwjeff - V2, Exedy triple, HTA88 - 9.80@148.60 mph
SloRice - BR ported mani, Tilton C/C, HTA35R - 9.9112@145.6 (have had a best MPH of 147.xx though)
Celica2Evo - V2, Exedy triple, HTA35R - 9.89@142.92 mph

All of these runs were done at the same track, Dragway42.

The ET's are all pretty close, minus Daniel's. I don't know about the other guys, but mine was on a 1.53 60ft, so pretty poor and it was Trent's one and only run in my car. The ET variances are all the result of the 60ft and shifting.

But the one thing I find interesting is the MPH's. David's testing showed something like 40whp gain with the V2 over the BR ported manifold. If that's the case, I would think there would be a noticeable difference in the MPH's of vwjeff and Celica2Evo's cars versus Daniel's, SPIN2GST's and my car...but there isn't.

Just some food for thought on what parts are really worth the money and which aren't.