Schiedes dive into speed density

[scheides]

Hey all, I've been posting in one of the SD threads on evoM, but figured I'd copy/paste my posts here and get some discussion going, as I'm still looking for some feedback! I used the off-the-shelf tephra v7 9651706 rom pre-patched for speed density, option 5 in the tephra v7 final thread.

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Goodbye MAF

Spent a few hours converting over my ROM and trying out a few iterations based on some stuff I had seen posted online. Initial impressions: WOW! The car is so smooth. Idle is ROCK solid (albeit a bit high, gotta work on that, 1300rpm), and any stuttering/bucking I had while on the freeway before is GONE. The car is SO smooth now its amazing.

A few notes:
-It took a few iterations to get the car to start/idle correctly. It wanted to idle in the 11's and load was way high. I got one that would work ok, made a few trips around the block, and all seemed decent.
-initially I set my WGDC all to zero. No boost! I'd hit about 9-10psi and confirmed seeing AFR in the 10's under 'boost' before trying anything more. No alky on or anything yet. Baby steps.
-Made a few more iterations to the SD maps this AM on my way into work. Tried a bunch, with mixed results. Ended up going back to almost exactly what I had the night before (some JB numbers, some starting with what others had posted, some of my own tweaking to get it to run):

-turned up boost to about 19, just keep it simple. AFR in the 10's and high 9's (I used my old afr map from my tuned rom @ DB Performance) and while it is SMOOTH as silk this new rom has lean spool completely disabled, and i don't think my previous one did (my bad).
-Got all the way to work and got CEL for fuel trims. Oops, forgot to log those, even though I had been watching AFR all the way. low/mid are -12/-12, so now I need to try and figure out what to do to fix that.
-lastly, the car wants to buck if I leave from a stop w/o revving it up to ~2000rpm. It would do this before, but I'd give it more gas and away I'd go. Now, it looks like it is leaning out as rpms drop to ~500 and then I need to feather them back to life. Not sure what's causing this, but I'm sure my messed up fuel trims have something to do with it.

Anyone have any insight for me? I'm using my injector scaling/latancies I have been using for almost 2 years, FIC 1050's, I'm using the GM IAT and the EvoX MAP sensor.

[scheides]

So much for 'waiting till this weekend' LOL!

The big improvement since yesterday is in the fuel trims, I have them dialed into right around 0% for LTFT mid. Also leaving from a stop the car would want to stumble and die, some logging showed that load jumped into the 80 range and AFR leaned out to 18:1. Tweaked the SD MAP VE map a bit and fixed that, stays in teh 14's now as I leave from a stop and no stumbling!

Here's where I'm at:


My LTFT Low is still at -12, but I haven't let the car idle a ton. While giving my buddy a ride the other day he was semi critical of the idle, which I had left around 1200-1250 rpm. I was super happy because of how it would not dip below that at all, and he was saying he thought it really should be lower for me to say its 'solid'...anyways, I made one tweak to idle rpms (haven't touched any of the ISC Stepper tables or anything yet!) and bam, the car idles at about 900rpm, maybe 925. Logs show 900-950-1000 but the tach needle just sits dead inbetween the 800rpm and 1000rpm tick marks. Kelford cams, ported head, ported everything else, not a single dip or stall, its absolutely mindblowing!

Going to review some of my WOT logs and see where timing is at, but boost is set at 19psi now and afr is in the high 10's on my wideband. Ready to get back up to 24psi and try and get dialed into my old tune. I have yet to touch AFR, timing, injector scaling or latency values aside from translating or copying them over from my old map.

Ooh, also, the car seems jittery while its warming up, and I've noticed that at 2000-2500 rpm while cruising sometimes it feels goofy to. AFRs are around 14.5-15 so need to see what else is going on to cause this. It is very subtle once warmed up.


Def looking for more feedback so please let me know what you think! I LOVE speed density so far!

[David Buschur]

I hope everyone else appreciate's your post as much as I do. Be patient, it will take some time to get a bunch of stock ECU guys over here. Once it happens the information will be SO much easier to find and use. If you need any special editing done here on the forums for the information you try to post just hit up one of the admin's, they will take care of it for you!

Thank you VERY MUCH!

[DDP]

I have a IX here right now I want to do some back to back tests with. Runs on E85 now on PTE1000's, stock IX turbo, cams, IC, etc. You can read for hours on EVOM and leave with a big ass headache in regards to SD. I look forward to some good discussions on here of results, fixes and just plain sharing of facts. I also want to use the EVO X sensor and GM IAT. Good work.

[Dyno Flash]

I'm hoping to have the opportunity to do some back to back testing on a Black Powered Evo with SD andthe stock MAF both on the stock ecu and quantify what the actual gains would be

SD testing is something I will be working on asap

Al

[dmoevo]

glad to see you made the switch, there's a lot of people including myself that get that little glitch between 2k rpms and 3k its something to do with the patch as the IPW is jittery. other than that the car idles rock solid and drives perfect

[RichJ]

-lastly, the car wants to buck if I leave from a stop w/o revving it up to ~2000rpm. It would do this before, but I'd give it more gas and away I'd go. Now, it looks like it is leaning out as rpms drop to ~500 and then I need to feather them back to life. Not sure what's causing this, but I'm sure my messed up fuel trims have something to do with it.

My car did that too. It was caused by it leaning out when the RPMs dipped and load was around 70. I did a band-aid fix by just modifying the fuel table in that RPM/load range, but I suspect the real fix lies in the advanced fuel control thread that mrfred did. I've got a tip-in lean condition as well that I've somewhat fixed through messing around blindly with the asynch tables, but I'm working blind with the old xmls. I'm planning to implement mrfred's new advanced fuel stuff this weekend, including the xml's that "logic" posted up for the 96530006 ROM. Should make it much easier to dial out that lean tip-in condition and also get the decel decay to decrease so I don't go so rich for so long when I lift. No throttle hang, but it's definitely going rich too much/too long when I lift.

[Rogue]

I'm hoping to have the opportunity to do some back to back testing on a Black Powered Evo with SD andthe stock MAF both on the stock ecu and quantify what the actual gains would be

SD testing is something I will be working on asap

Al

Works for me. =)

glad to see you made the switch, there's a lot of people including myself that get that little glitch between 2k rpms and 3k its something to do with the patch as the IPW is jittery. other than that the car idles rock solid and drives perfect

This is the main concern I had - minor glitches. I hope in a month when I am ready to go SD that the bugs will be worked out and the right patches or what ever are in place to make the entire application perfect.

[scheides]

Friday update. Back up to 25psi! Its amazing how fast the car feels after its been down on power (or limped or whatever) for a few days. All of the little boost control mods v7 has to offer really make the car responsive and when its dialed in the car just rips! BBK is holding 25psi dead flat from 3800 out to 7700rpm (highest I've logged so far) with about 84% WGDC. Bryan@GST did note that he had to tweak WGDC a bit to bring boost inline with where it was before, and here's what I noticed: I needed a bit more WGDC down low during boost onset, and had to take a little bit out up top, boost was off by about 2-3%. I literally made two changes and logged a few pulls in a few different gears and its perfect again. I LOVE this ecu controlled boost setup once its dialed in!

More on topic, I have yet to touch my AFR or timing maps that shane@DB made for me (and I hope to not have to, this tune has served me VERY well this summer ) My load up top is a bit high now, so I'm droping down the highest valve on the MAP VE table from 430 to 410 to see if I can slowly get load back to where it was before on the street. It's peaking in the 330's and tapering to ~300, before I was peaking at 280 and tapering to 250 or so. I'm also now using 1byte load vs 2byte load, so I'm focusing more on the timing values the car is running moreso than the actual load numbers I'm logging.

I had accidentally misread the EGR timing advance under cruise bit and disabled it (vs enabling it, the bit is backward, it reads 'disable EGR timing advance' 0 is enabled, 1 is disabled). I knew about this already and totally spaced it. Anyways its worth mentioning because my car drove like isht when it was cold and wanted to jerk when warmed up and cruising at low speed. As soon as I turned this back to 0 and put my EGR Timing Advance timing tables bumped up to where I had them before (bumped just slightly from stock, 6's and 8's) the car drove as it had before.

Still getting this ever so slight jerkyness when under low low load while cruising in the 2000-2700rpm range, which is a fairly widely known issue with this speed density setup and I would rate it at very mildly annoying and often not noticable...but Slo_crx1 on evoM posted up last night that he thinks he has eliminated this issue using the new tables that mrfred posted re: advanced fuel control and globally increased the values in the Asynch vs TPSDelta table (sort of a TPS tip-in type control I think). I'm going to try this out today as this is potentially a huge break through on this project.

I'm going to try these settings out, dial in my loads as mentioned above, and just bomb around for a few days and see how it goes! It's SO easy to focus on the laptop its getting to be time to just drive the car and see how it feels and just enjoy it. Once I'm happy, alky will be flipped back on and back up to 30psi!

Oh, does anyone know, can I just unplug my MAS? I'm toying with the idea of either gutting out an old MAS I have (w/ a destroyed honeycomb) or getting a 3" inlet perrin filter and just strapping it to the end of my buschur intake.

[Black95awd]

Yes, you can just unplug it. I have mine completely out of the car

This is a good read as well. I made the switch but have not messed with the base value's to much. It started up and ran decent enough to drive around, but now I have a PO172 (I think that's the code) for over rich condition.

[scheides]

Monday update, the part throttle cruise either has gotten worse or I'm noticing it more. I am going to turn my async table back down to stock and see if that makes it better or if the increments I made to the EGR timing advance table make any difference either (I'll try that next).

I unplugged my stock MAS/MAF tonight w/o issue. No CEL, no stumble (did it while car was running), nadda, just plain awesome! Does anyone know if the MAF Scaling and associated tables actually do anything anymore?

Thanks a ton JohnBradley and Bryan@GST Motorsports for sharing your setups with me. JohnBradley's (Ref1, Ref2) is something to strive for, perfect fully tuned 1:1 VE tables, definite beauty to that! Bryan@GST, well, my tables look damn near identical to yours, although I did make a bump near the bottom to try and get some of my midrange load values to line up to my previous maf-based tune. However, our SD RPM VE tables are not so close, I feel like mine are globally down 15% from your or so. I have yet to idle or cruise in full open-loop but the car idled way rich and fuel trims were full -12% negative w/o setting these values in the middle of this table (1000-3000rpm) in the 67-70% region. Anyone have any idea why that might be? Ported head, cams?

I have timing very very close to where it was before and the car feels fantastic. Boost is low 24psi, right where I want it, nice and conservative. I'm nearly ready to flip the alky on except for a few problems: thanksgiving (traveling), rain, and snow in teh forcast. Sigh.

[scheides]

oh, I forgot! Any ideas on what to do for an intake when I delete the mas?

I'm thinking of simply bolting one of these to my standard buschur intake:
http://www.perrinperformance.com/pro...gory=3&model=2

[scheides]

So, on the jitter thing, async TPS table doesn't seem to make a lick of difference for me, so I changed it back to stock. EGR Timing advance tables are now stock as well, and I also tried full-time open loop, as someone mentioned to me that getting the cruise AFR in the low 14's high 13's had helped for them. I tried afrs from 15.5 down to 12.9 w/o any difference (other than it smelled like gas a lot more LOL!).

Bump for anyone knowing if the MAF Scaling tables actually doing anything on this speed density patch.

[Rogue]

ah yes - the off boost issue..

Al said he was getting the bugs worked out a few days ago.. maybe PM him.

[scheides]

According to his post above he hadn't started on a SD car until after I did, so IDK if he'l have this issue figured out already (no offense Al), since a ton of other people have already been looking at it.

[Rogue]

he and i were pm'in the other night.. said he had an sd car on the dyno at the time and was workin it over with a crowd in attendance.

[scheides]

So I loaded up alky/alt-map stuff last night and tested it this morning. Fuel is spot on, high 11's just perfect. Timing however, is pretty far off, 4-5°. Thankfully they were LOW, otherwise I might be crying right now Going to have to adjust the scaling a little to bring it up to where it should be.

I'm taking baby steps, and it is just amazing to me how much power 2° of timing adds on alky, the car just feels like it is waking up! 2-3° left to go. I'm working out what I want to do for a new intake, and still contemplating a new COP ignition setup before I throw it on the dyno for shane@DB Performance to dial it in.


I have a question: let's say I get everything nice and dialed in on my current setup. Then I upgrade turbos. Assuming I keep a similar boost profile, I assume AFRs at WOT will go lean and I will just need to adjust the VE tables for either high rpm, high load, or both? BBK XL wut? :P

[Rogue]

isnt VE only affected by intake mani, cams, pistons...?

[scheides]

Got alky dialed in today, car rips again! virtual dyno room puts me right back where I was, around 420whp on evoM comparator mode. I had to mess with the load scaling to get timing where it was, but seems pretty good now!

So, I have 2 pending issues:
-knock on spool-up, or tip-in. I'll try messing with the tip-in table, but I haven't logged a lean condition yet and timing seems ok, so not sure what the deal is.
-2000-2800rpm jitter. Still searching, hoping to log it and find a work-around.

Just wanna say thanks to everyone that helped me get this far, I am SO happy with the new speed density setup, it is absolutely amazing.

[RichJ]

I've got that jitter in the mid-2000 rpm range as well. It doesn't bother me enough to go back to the MAF, but it is annoying.